11:53:27 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : If space development is predicated upon global governance structures, it will never happen.

 

11:53:28 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : https://www.sciencedirect.com/ journal/futures/vol/110/suppl/C. The “Great Colonization Debate” is especially interesting as it’s basically a free for all with every imaginable point of view and grew out of a panel at the last SSoCIA - great fun to pull together

 

11:53:34 From John Traphagan to Everyone : Daniel Deudney's new book Dark Skies makes some similar arguments, but actually argues against space expansionism for some time.  He makes a strong argument. 

 

11:53:36 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : Just flagging the use of "evolved' to mean more mature.

 

11:53:57 From Nathalie Gontier to Everyone : in fact what have been the ssocia associated publications so far?

 

11:53:58 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Phil Torres wrote a paper with an argument like Dark Skies 11:54:03 From kdenning@yorku.ca to Everyone : There's also the problem that the USA has been pulling out of various multilateral programs: UNESCO in 2019, WHO in 2021 unless that's to be reversed, Paris in 2020.

 

11:54:25 From John Traphagan to Everyone : I did an interview with Deudney that was really interesting.  https://newbooksnetwork.com/dark-skies

 

11:54:26 From Daniela de Paulis to Everyone : Thanks Linda, I really enjoyed your presentation

 

11:54:41 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : Orbital habitat with artificial gravity is a far more conservative way of human presence entering extra-terran environments 11:55:40 From Linda Billings to Everyone : Let’s hope that the  admin will rejoin some of those organizations. 

 

11:55:58 From John Traphagan to Everyone : Linda, as always, that was an interesting and provocative talk.  Thanks!

 

11:56:56 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : Let's hope even more that Congress has the sense to make law out of joining those organizations and not leave it up to the discretion of the executive. Also: not holding my breath

 

11:57:48 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Oh yes, I am sure congress will be reasonable…

 

11:58:14 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : That was sarcastic - I am not THAT Neo-liberal…

 

11:58:36 From Linda Billings to Everyone : @Ditto, @Eric and @Kelly.

 

11:58:37 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : btw, the land footprint to keep a 1-GW coal-fired power plant supplied with fuel via strip mining is 1 square mile permanently ruined per GW per year.  Real easy math, which I can share. Almost exactly like Dan's Dallas citation! 

 

11:58:54 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Congress is equal opportunity malfeasance -- it's not limited to one's political tribe

 

11:59:03 From kdenning@yorku.ca to Everyone : I love this idea, Dan.

 

11:59:35 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Nathalie – to my knowledge? Theology & Science 15(2) section on Hawking https:// www.ctns.org/publications/theology-science/contents ; OUP book: 

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/social-and-conceptual-issuesin-astrobiology-9780190915650?cc=us&lang=en& ; Futures Issue: https:// www-sciencedirect-com.unr.idm.oclc.org/science/article/pii/S0016328719300692 ; and numerous other articles. Might be good to start keeping a list of articles that have resulted from/been presented in these conferences, just to show how awesome we are. 

 

12:00:39 From Robert.Kennedy to Everyone : have to run now, hope to be back in an hour...

 

12:01:25 From Nathalie Gontier to Everyone : @ Carlos, cool! many thanks for this

 

12:01:42 From Linda Billings to Everyone : Nathalie, maybe we could collectively an assemble a bibliography for the SSOCIA web site.

 

12:02:03 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : As long as it’s not on me - already have enough on my plate right now

 

12:02:26 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Informal poll among my family last night: I could not get lots of sympathy for the Man in the Moon, but they were very worried about the landing sites. This surprised me: I thought  Man would get wide support. Zero indignation. Partly, because they thought that that would be too much territory.

 

12:02:58 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Kelly – I’m starting a list, but maybe we could send out an email to encourage people to brag?

 

12:03:01 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Interesting!

 

12:03:08 From Nathalie Gontier to Everyone : @ Linda, yes that is a great idea

 

12:03:19 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : When I asked students in my science and values class this semester how much they would care if we made contact with ETI tomorrow, about half of them were like, “Meh, doesn’t impact me”

 

12:04:19 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Sheri - as a prank, ask them whether we ought to preserve the movie sets where we shot those scenes from "2001: A Space Odyssey" and "Transformers."

 

12:04:59 From Ted Peters to Everyone : I ply the term, "single planetary community of moral deliberation," to identify the moral agent. The difficulty is practical: how to make this happen?

 

12:06:16 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : I thought their answer was really surprising: everybody for generations gazing up at the Man / rabbit: and they were like ... nah: no big deal! I don't think they'd care about movie sites either: but, these are pretty strong environmentalists Earthside. 

 

12:06:55 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : It's radio interference from other sources that's the issue, not the radio telescope itself. 

 

12:07:10 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : I think we look up less, partially due to light pollution, and hence, have a less personal relationship with the Moon.

 

12:07:23 From Julia DeMarines to Everyone : Thanks for bringing up the lunar far side for SETI @Carl

 

12:07:23 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Kelly – I think we’re bad at recognizing how much future events will impact us. ETI may not affect people emotionally nor their daily lives, but it would be a completely new epistemic world. I think I said a thing about that in our interview with John: https://newbooksnetwork.com/social-and-

conceptual-issues-in-astrobiology

 

12:07:27 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Claudio Maccone has been a major advocate of a lunar farside radio observatory 12:07:42 From Ryan Fortenberry to Everyone : @Lucas.  I agree and also because we look too much at ourselves (i.e. social media).

 

12:07:46 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : @Carlos - yes, but still weird 

 

12:08:02 From Erik Persson to Everyone : @ Kelly, I was involved in a survey among students in Sweden where we asked a similar question (among others) DOI: https://doi.org/10.1017/S1473550417000556

 

12:08:07 From Neil Manson to Everyone : The Dark Skies movement is addressing the global problem on nighttime light pollution. I didn't make the connection till now about having less connection to the moon and other astronomical objects as a result. 

 

12:08:55 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : That's what I was thinking, Lucas: They acted like it would not bother them much.

 

12:09:36 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : A few science papers are starting to acknowledge scarcity and susstainability issues when it comes to lunar exploitation.  Of course 5+ years after Tony Milligan and I started pointed out the problem!

 

12:09:46 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : A similar but older move happened when the light filled heavens became empty space in the social imaginary.

 

12:09:53 From kdenning@yorku.ca to Everyone : This proposal is an excellent example of the kind of multi-stakeholder solution that does work, sometimes, on Earth. But there will be some exceptions with the non-renewables, as Linda is flagging. FWIW, my understanding of the current interest in Helium 3 is that it's about fostering further exploration of the solar system, not any kind of return to Earth.

 

12:10:21 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : That was my impression Kathryn 

 

12:10:49 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Isn't anybody going to say: "Pease don't kill the wabbit?"

 

12:11:07 From Ryan Fortenberry to Everyone : “Duck season!”

 

12:11:14 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Elmer Fudd enters the chat

 

12:11:18 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : The mined regolith should be roughly the color of the lines leading out from impact craters - in other words, almost white (I have been studying photos of this recently)

 

12:11:19 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : Wascalwy wabbit!

 

12:11:50 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : It would be interesting to compare the lunar surface to the geoglyphs at Nazca

 

12:12:15 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : at Nazca all they do is turn over rocks, which are a different color on the underside 

 

12:12:38 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : due to weathering

 

12:13:15 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Despite the fact that my own family acted like it was no big deal: I think "save the rabbit" would be a really good social media campaign.

 

12:13:32 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : Zubrin's National Review piece is...a real...piece of work.  I've been trying to get a reply piece published...

 

12:13:40 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : Who enforces international property restrictions?

 

12:13:50 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : The United Federation of Planets, of course…

 

12:13:53 From Neil Manson to Everyone : There would be few practical limitations to create visible-from-earth geoglyphs on the moon, correct? It'd just be a matter of putting in the effort. But if it was  used for, say, commercial advertising, it might be worth doing for them.

 

12:14:00 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : @Lucas the ones with the biggest and best guns

 

12:14:04 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Oh lord, Zubrin!

 

12:14:50 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : At the current time, there's such thing as international property. All rights in property are subordinate to some sovereignty.

 

12:15:37 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : International property rights 

are based on the use of force

 

12:15:55 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Maritime law has long recognized the private ownership of mined materials from international waters.  Whether this is a good idea is another question, but there is no doubt it can work and there are clear precedents in law.

 

12:15:56 From William Alba to Everyone : Heinlein's story "The Man Who Sold the Moon" involved putting ads on the face of the Moon

 

12:16:22 From Neil Manson to Everyone : wow!

 

12:16:35 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : @ William - wait for my discussion on Thursday!

 

12:16:43 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : @William: Phil Lubin gave a talk at the 2019 Interstellar Workshop talking about how he could sell time on a laser array to project ads on the Moon :(

 

12:17:00 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : There is also an interesting legal precedent in the material of human bodies, which cannot be owned unless labor it put into working with them.

 

12:17:01 From Julia DeMarines to Everyone : yikes

 

12:17:07 From Neil Manson to Everyone : ugh

 

12:17:21 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : @Neil: The was a commercial proposal to a giant laser to paint advertising on the moon; this was some time in the 90's. I told the fellow who told me that "I would take up arms against that". He was aghast.

 

12:17:44 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Property rights due to one's investment of labor is classic Locke, and can be found in the second treatise of civil government 

 

12:18:41 From Neil Manson to Everyone : That'd be the astronomical equivalent of the Boom Box.

 

12:19:30 From Eric Hughes to Everyone : Applicable to the lunar image: an essay by Ivan Illich titled _Silence is a Commons_

 

12:19:45 From Neil Manson to Everyone : Eric - agreed!

 

12:20:45 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : I am confident that my family would object if I asked them if we could change it so the Man in the Moon is drinking a Pepsi. Or the Rabbit is munching a Green Giant carrot.

 

12:21:22 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : I think there's an interesting tension between what we think people should/should not do and what we feel it appropriate to stop them from doing.

 

12:22:26 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Lucas - not that too many people get this distinction as it tends to get bulldozed in most conversations

​

12:22:34 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : the Parker solar probe is given months worth of instructions at a time. this type of protocol will only improve.

 

12:23:13 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : Is the idea in the group that people might not be bothered by destruction, but would be bothered by information-containing messages? What would people think if the Moon was modified to advertise something like “floss daily”? 

 

12:24:09 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Charles Townes at MIT, who supervised the US 1969 Moon landing, strongly urged the end of manned space explorations of the Moon. He recommended robotic missions. Lower cost due to lack of need to fund safety for human astronauts.

 

12:25:05 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Space scientists usually favor robotic missions over human missions

 

12:25:24 From Sarah Reynolds to Everyone : @Carlos  I think the idea is that there is a way in which additions can be more damaging than neglect of preservation.  Consider graffiti or those botched restoration jobs, for instance.

 

12:26:55 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Sarah: perhaps another instance of the precautionary principle? Action has to be justified, inaction does not?

 

12:27:44 From Dan Capper to Everyone : @ Carlos, your idea, no offense, breaks my heart.  Our moon is a marvelous emergent wonder of the solar system.  To use it as a message board, even if it is not physically harmed, strikes me personally as disrespectful.

 

12:27:53 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : The labeled release experiment remains controversial

 

12:28:14 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Nick - indeed.  An interesting debate

 

12:28:29 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : A good opportunity for philosophical inquiry

 

12:28:49 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : @Dan – oh, I agree, I’m just probing intuitions. I’d hate to see it myself, just wondering about the underlying reasons

 

12:29:07 From Erik Persson to Everyone : @Carlos That doesn't sound a lot like the PP. In the most influential formulations, the PP is formulated to that when important values are at stake we should not wait for scientific certainty before taking action to protect these values.

 

12:29:30 From Lucas Mix to Everyone : I think it's a great example of goalpost shifting, but I find it hard to credit (as a biologist) that the labelled release experiment provides good evidence for life. 

 

12:29:34 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Does the intuitive apperception of natural beauty count philosophically? Probably, yes. Scientifically? Probably not.

 

12:29:58 From Sarah Reynolds to Everyone : @Carlos Yes, but then I think the odd thing becomes what sorts of additions constant different levels of violation.  Does it make a difference what shapes or patterns strip mining occurs in?  If it adds bars or circles versus is randomized, is that better somehow than overt intentional shaping for messages?

 

12:29:59 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : Sure, aesthetic appreciation has moral value

 

12:30:14 From Pauli Laine to Everyone : http://www.saunalahti.fi/~harrrab/english/mars-english.html

 

12:30:27 From kdenning@yorku.ca to Everyone : @Carlos: there would be diverse opinions globally... some just don't want the Moon touched at all because it's sacred.          

 

12:31:42 From Dan Capper to Everyone : @ Ted, you are right!  But science gives us reasons to preserve locations apart from natural magnificence.

 

12:32:20 From Nick Nielsen to Everyone : Prelapsarian majesty, in Soulé's terms

 

12:32:37 From Dr Sheri Wells-Jensen to Everyone : Could you... strip mine and make art at the same time? Draw something pretty with your strip mining equipment? I'm not sure I'm for this: pretty sure I'm not, but if there were some abstract design as opposed to advertising? 

Would that be better?

 

12:33:25 From Ted Peters to Everyone : Strip mine and leave a giant word, "Geiko," so that we can see if from Earth. 

 

12:33:34 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : @sheri: super interesting question.

 

12:33:50 From Jim Schwartz to Everyone : I fear Sheri has given Kelly a bad idea for an art grant.

 

12:34:01 From Kelly Smith to Everyone : :) precisely!

 

12:34:19 From Andrew Kennedy to Everyone : a Ferrari still pollutes

 

12:35:10 From William Alba to Everyone : In the Moon Arts group here at CMU, some colleagues proposed selling rover time, so that people could draw images in the regolith with the vehicle tracks.

 

12:35:50 From William Alba to Everyone : Not viewable from Earth -- not as large-scale as what Sheri proposed

 

12:36:07 From Carlos Mariscal to Everyone : A Lunar Etch-a-Sketch!